The following Question & Answer document was presented to the Presbytery at a special conversational meeting April 30. A copy has also been mailed to BPC members. The responses were provided as part of a dialogue intended to answer those questions posed during and after the March 31 meeting of the Presbytery of the Western Reserve. We pray these responses will be helpful to our congregation and to those who are considering BPC's request for dismissal which will be considered at the Presbytery's meeting on May 28, 2008.

I. General Questions

1. Can we (the presbytery) talk to the congregation face-to-face?  Can we present our side?Representatives of the Presbytery of the Western Reserve had several opportunities to speak with and hear from the congregation of Bay Presbyterian Church during the discernment process. The congregation heard from the Presbytery in several ways. They received a letter from Moderator Jessie MacMillan in September and the Presbytery hosted information meetings September 30 and October 14. The Presbytery also attended several of the presentations conducted by Session, including a congregational meeting on September 16. General Presbyter Liza Hendricks was a panelist at the Town Hall Forum conducted at Bay on October 21. Members of the Special Administrative Review Committee (the “SARC”) were also invited to the working committee meetings for the discernment process and Presbytery officials received comments from members over the course of the process. Additionally, congregational members who had questions or concerns with the outcome of the November 18 vote were invited a few days after the vote to attend a Presbytery-sponsored meeting at Rocky River Presbyterian Church to hear about their options, including joining other PC(USA) congregations. Jessie MacMillan wrote another letter to the congregation in January 2008, which included a request if members wished to speak with Presbytery leadership.
   
2. What is the New Wineskins Association of Churches?  What is the New Wineskins?
   Bay is a member of the New Wineskins Association of Churches, a group of nearly 200 Presbyterian churches across America who believe we have received a vision and accepted the call to work it out. These include churches that wish to remain in the PC(USA) as well as depart. What we have seen is a movement of God’s Spirit across the world which is transcending denominational lines and drawing millions to meet Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior for the first time. We envision a church that is theologically clear and passionate because it is based on shared essential tenets of historic orthodox faith. We envision a church that is brimming over with compassion because we are clear about the Biblical ethics we share. We envision a church that is missionally driven. Our focus is on outreach, on spreading the gospel in word and deed beyond our walls. We envision a church that is reshaped in polity in order to serve our mission, in order to deepen trust and accountability.
   
3. What is the Evangelical Presbyterian Church?
   The Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) was formed in 1981 out of the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A., one of the predecessors of the PC(USA).  The EPC is rooted in the Reformed faith and has a definite focus on the Great Commission. The EPC has more than 200 churches and 70,000 members. If you were to compare the essential tenets of the EPC to the essential tenets of New Wineskins you would see they overlap almost perfectly.  Since the New Wineskin’s 10 essentials tenets, which were preached from the BPC pulpit last summer, very much align with the biblical priorities and mission of Bay, we can be assured that we will very much align with the EPC as well. Session sent two of its members to the EPC General Assembly meetings this past June to discern the nature of this denomination and came away highly impressed with its vision and purpose. To learn more about the EPC, visit their website at www.epc.org.

II. Questions specifically asked of the Bay congregation?

1. Was Bob Armstrong forbidden to tell the congregation prior to the vote that he was staying in the PC(USA)?
   Neither the Session nor any other member of the congregation forbid any of the pastors to share any information regarding their future decisions.  However, the pastors themselves met together and agreed that their decision on where to serve was a separate decision from the congregation’s decision on dismissal.  In order not to confuse the two issues—the pastors agreed not to speak to the congregation as to their future plans until well after the vote.  All the pastors were interviewed by the SARC before the vote and shared their plans with the SARC.  It was agreed by all concerned that the pastors’ future plans should be separated from the congregational discernment process.
   
2. Why isn’t Bay joining the EPC directly, as some other departing churches have done?  That would make several of the deed restrictions moot if they did so.
   Bay is joining the EPC by joining one of its ten presbyteries. The New Wineskins EPC Presbytery functions as any other Presbytery within the EPC except that the governing documents include the New Wineskins Constitution.
   
3. How much debt does BPC have? When was the last time Bay paid on the principal of their debt or are they paying interest only?
   As of March 31, 2008, Bay’s debt stands at $1,194,142. The most recent principal payment of $6,963 was made in March 2008. Other information regarding budget and contributions to the PC(USA) and Presbytery is filed with the Presbytery of the Western Reserve on a regularly scheduled basis.
   
4. How can you say “there is no remnant” when some members have been so disaffected that they have chosen to leave your communion?
   When a PC(USA) congregation seeks dismissal, there will always be some members who disagree with the action.  Some who disagree will continue to remain part of the congregation seeking dismissal.  Others who disagree will seek a new PC(USA) church home.  If those members who disagree and wish to seek a new PC(USA) church home are unable to be assimilated easily into a neighboring PC(USA) church, a remnant of the church seeking dismissal may exist for which the Presbytery would need to provide a church home.  However, in the case of Bay, the 10 members who have left for another PC(USA) church joined either John Knox Presbyterian or Rocky River Presbyterian.  In that context, since all the members who left were able to join a neighboring PC(USA) church, there is no Bay remnant left for which the Presbytery needs to provide a church home.
   
5. You have said this is no change and there will be no change in your church.  Yet, with both a female minister and elders, you are joining a denomination which affirms neither.  How can this be described as no change?
   One of the inalienable constitutional rights of the EPC is for a church to call its own leaders.  There is nothing that prevents women from serving in any church though some churches have chosen not to call women as elders or pastors.  There are women ordained in the EPC in those roles.  Men and women of good faith have searched the Scripture and come to different conclusions concerning this.  You should also know that the New Wineskins constitution, which BPC will be operating under, states: "Among the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of leadership, which should find full expression in the church at all levels (Romans 12:8).  Those whom the covenant community has recognized as mature, gifted, and called will be encouraged to fill positions of leadership at all levels of the church, without partiality to ethnicity, race or gender (Galatians 3:26-29).  Their responsibility, consistent with the true meaning of ordination and the Reformed affirmation of the priesthood of all believers, is to equip each member of the body for his or her God-ordained works of service."
   
6. Do you have contingent plans if the New Wineskins Transitional Presbytery does not continue after five years?  Have you thought of joining EPC directly?  If not, why not?
   It is our expectation that in 2012 the New Wineskins Presbytery will be absorbed into the EPC.  The EPC embraces the same Essentials of the Faith in the context of historic Presbyterianism and our approach to mission is almost identical to the New Wineskins and presents incredible opportunities. We considered joining the EPC directly and affirmed the approach to seek to join with the New Wineskins Presbytery.
   
7. I am curious about the discernment process that Bay went through.  It probably did not present a fair picture of the PCUSA.  How were congregation members in prayer?  How was scripture used?
   Over the past 14 years, the Sessions of BPC have discussed and explored issues with regard to our concerns and relationship with the PC (USA). After two years of intense study and prayer, the Session last summer initiated a broad-based, fair discernment process that was grounded in scripture and bathed in prayer. For example, special prayer services were held every other Wednesday evening throughout the process and a prayer vigil was held prior to the vote. Additionally, throughout the discernment process, members of our congregation committed to monthly hours of prayer time, covering 24 hours a day, seven days a week.  During the nearly four-month discernment process, there were more than 40 events/presentations conducted before a broad representation of the church. We collected comment cards from the worship services on a weekly basis and framed many subsequent meetings and included “Frequently Asked Questions” documents on the church website. The Special Administrative Review Committee was involved throughout the process and was presented with many opportunities to speak to our congregation, as well as members of the Session. As the process was drawing to a close, our Senior Pastor described Session’s efforts as “faithfully carried out” and the congregation affirmed this with their overwhelming vote to ask to be dismissed.
   
8. Could someone from Bay please explain the basis for their claim that they “legally, ethically and Biblically” own their property?
   Legally, in that The Bay Presbyterian Church, an Ohio nonprofit corporation, holds fee simple title to all of its property.  Ethically, in that the funding for Bay’s acquisition of its property consisted solely of contributions from the congregation.  Biblically, in that scripture provides examples of people being called to something new and leaving with their possessions.  (E.g., Jacob leaving Haran to return to Canaan, Genesis 31:55; the Israelites leaving Egypt for Canaan, Exodus 12:32.)
   
9. How did they arrive at their figure of $550,000?
   The $550,000 payment by Bay to the Presbytery is a gift meant to make Bay’s leaving the Presbytery less difficult from a financial standpoint.  The $550,000 is made up of ten payments, the first being $100,000 and each succeeding payment being $10,000 less.  In each of the past several years Bay has contributed slightly less than $100,000 in total per capita and mission fund contributions to the Presbytery.  The objective is to provide financial assistance to the Presbytery to make up for Bay’s departure with a gradual phase down to allow the Presbytery to adjust to the change.
   
10. What is Bay Presbyterian Church’s biblical justification for terminating conversations and negotiations with the Presbytery’s Negotiating Team?
    Both the Bay and Presbytery Negotiating Teams could rely on Matthew 10:14: “If anyone will not . . . listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.”  In the last couple of meetings, both sides were unwilling to compromise their positions.  Any future meetings would have been futile.
    
11. Why do we keep 11 documents in the Book of confessions while the NWAC accepts only the Westminster Confession?
    As you know, the Westminster Confession of Faith (written in 1647) was the sole doctrinal standard for British and American Presbyterianism for over three centuries. The Book of Confessions which includes many other reformed confessions from a variety of countries and also includes 20^th century confessions, was adopted by the United Presbyterian Church in 1967.  While NWAC (and the EPC) surely see the theological value in many other Reformed Confessions, it is much easier to ask leadership to abide by a confessional standard if there are not so many that no one reads them or even knows what they say.  The Westminster Confession is a great summary of the Reformed faith that can be studied, applied and utilized for the ongoing mission and ministry of the church and NWAC is just returning to a simpler, direct guide that can actually be utilized in ministry.

III.  Questions concerning Finances, the Trust clause or Practical Matters

1. What is the issue the presbytery sees in changing Bay’s name?
   It is the intent of the Session of Bay to retain the name Bay Presbyterian Church. This name, adopted in 1917 and decades before the PC(USA) was even formed -- has been used throughout our existence and while we were members of not only the PC(USA), but also the UPCUSA and the Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.  Bay would wish to keep it because it reflects who we are and wish to continue to be – Presbyterian.
   
2. Why are we negotiating?  What is there to negotiate?
   There are many things to negotiate to minimize any adverse impact of dismissal on Bay and the Presbytery.  Members who wish to remain with a PC(USA) church can be assisted in finding a new church home, adverse financial impact  on the Presbytery can be mitigated, and care for any pastors not making the transition can be provided.  Bay has done all of these things.
   
3. How does the trust clause function?
   Before discussing the function of the trust clause, some background on the trust clause is needed.  The provisions of G-8.0201 of the Book of Order purport to establish a trust, wherein the local church is the trustee and the PC(USA) is the beneficiary.  As the beneficiary, the PC(USA) claims that property owned by the local church is held for the use and benefit of the PC(USA).
   
   Despite this language in the Book of Order, many courts that have addressed the trust clause have not enforced it against the local church.  The GA Legal Resource Manual provides this comment: “Unfortunately, a number of church property cases do not reflect the free exercise of religion by respecting the polity and structure a church has chosen for itself.”  Why is this so?  Because, as the GA Legal Resource Manual comments, “almost all property matters are governed by state law.” Ohio requires that an interest in real estate be set forth in writing.  Is the trust clause language in the Book of Order sufficient to satisfy this state law requirement?  The Magistrate handling the dispute between the Hudson Presbyterian Church and Eastminster Presbytery ruled earlier this year that “far more” than the trust clause language in the Book of Order is required to demonstrate the elements of an express trust between the parties.
   
   So much for background.  How does the trust clause function?  In reviewing PC(USA) literature, it appears that the overriding function of the trust clause would be to provide guidance to a Presbytery to help settle property disputes when a church is in schism.  The Presbytery in dealing with a church in schism would determine which faction is the true church and award the property to that faction.  The trust clause also seems to serve a purpose when a church is dissolving.  In that case, the Presbytery can determine what to do with the property that is left when a congregation is no more.  When a congregation that is not in schism is seeking dismissal to another reformed denomination, however, the trust clause does not appear to serve any function.
   
4. How would we use any funds that we received as settlement from Bay?
   While this question is more appropriately addressed to the Presbytery, as far as Bay is concerned, the Presbytery may use the funds in any way it sees fit.
   
5. If the motion of Bay’s session passes, how will the terms be formed into a legally binding agreement?
   A written agreement would be prepared to represent the terms of dismissal between the parties.

IV.  Questions with Constitutional or Parliamentary Implications

1. Can an alternate “solution” be presented from the floor or from Mission Council?  Are we restricted to amendments to Bay‘s motion?
   While amendments may be raised, they may not necessarily be ones that Bay will accept.
   
2. Does the Book of Order require that a financial settlement be made when a church is dismissed to another Reformed Denomination?
   No, in fact there have been instances where a Presbytery has dismissed a congregation without any financial settlement.  For example, Middle Sandy Presbyterian Church (Homeworth, OH) and St. Paul’s Presbyterian Church (Somerset, PA).
   
3. Bay has claimed there is no “schism,” yet schism is defined in this way by Webster:  “formal division or separation from a church or religious body.” What is schism in a church?  Is Bay in schism?
   Within a congregation, a schism may be found where there is a conflict between two or more opposing groups, generally caused by a difference in opinion or belief.  If this schism becomes serious, a congregation may actually split into two or more congregations.  The most notable example of a schism in the religious context is the Great Schism of 1054, when the Western (Latin) Church and the Eastern (Greek) Church divided and became the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, respectively. Bay is not in schism.  An overwhelming majority of the congregation voted to seek dismissal.  Of the over 2,000 active members at Bay, there have been 10 members who left for neighboring PC(USA) churches.  There is no danger of Bay splitting or dividing into two or more congregations.  In fact, since Bay’s vote in November 2007, a total of 28 new members have joined the congregation with the knowledge that Bay was seeking dismissal from the PC(USA).
   
4. Does it follow the Book of Order to dismiss Bay to a Presbytery rather than to a Reformed denomination?
   The New Wineskins Presbytery is a legitimate part of the EPC, so Bay would be dismissed to a Reformed denomination.
   
5. How does the PCUSA define “missionary?”  Do people like doctors, nurses, educators, and volunteers ever count as missionaries?  How does the NWAC define “missionary?”
   The PC(USA) and the NWAC define missionaries in the same way: "long-term compensated mission personnel (excluding volunteers) supported by the national offices of the PC(USA)."
   
6. What does it mean to belong to a denomination, especially a connectional one?
   A denomination is a connectional structure that houses and organizes a portion of the Church, joining together a number of individual congregations for mutual benefit and effectiveness.  It is an organization united by a common theology, committed to mutual accountability, and organized missionally for the sake of shared ministry and mission.  It is not to be mistaken for the Church.”  (NWAC Constitution).  Obviously, when a church feels the historical connection to a denomination has become frayed due to evolving changes within the denomination itself, then the connection  becomes weakened to the point that the church needs to establish new connections with a Presbyterian denomination where it senses greater harmony on theology, mission and ministry issues.
   
7. Does the Authoritative Interpretation of the PUP Report circumvent the Reformed governance of requiring the General Assembly and majority presbytery approval of a change in ordination standards?
   Standards may be interpreted, but the AI did not (and constitutionally could not) change any ordination standard.

V.  Questions of Biblical or Theological stances

1. (About the breakdown in negotiations) Where in the Hebrew Scripture’s cry for justice is stopping conversations with other Presbyterians justified?  Where in the Christian Scripture’s call for love of God and neighbor and compassion for others does it make theological sense to say that we don’t want to talk to the Presbytery anymore?
   When two parties disagree, the Bible clearly points to appropriate discussion as the first course of action (Matthew 18).  The Bible also clearly points to justified separation as a means for two parties to move forward who disagree such as Paul and Barnabas did in Acts 15.
   
2. I was a visitor, at the March 31^st meeting.  During the “education” portion of the Bay Pres discussion, I could not hear the speaker clearly but I thought he said “the Presbyterian Church USA is going toward evolution,” or something to that effect, and Bay was not happy with that.  My question is, as Presbyterians, are we expected to reject evolution?
   We believe the questioner may have misunderstood what was said by Elder Ken Simmons at the Presbytery meeting on March 31^st. Ken was not speaking about the theory of evolution versus creation, but moral evolution that seems to be occurring across many mainline denominations. The context of his talk was as follows: “The mission of Bay is built on acceptance of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.  It was given by God so that we would have His Word by which to govern our decisions.  All decisions can be judged based upon holding them up to the light of the scriptures as written by their original authors.  We believe they said what they meant and meant what they said.  If our decisions meet that test, then we proceed.  If they do not, then we know we are not in His will.  We do not accept that as times change the meaning of the scriptures change.  There is no moral evolution.”
   
3. What is the difference between Bay’s position on scripture (as outlined in Presbytery last night by an elder) and idolatry of scripture?  It sounds like they “worship” the Bible as well as God.
   Bay is a Christ-Centered Church not a “Bible Centered Church.”  We do not worship the Bible nor take a purely literal interpretation of scripture.  However, we do believe that the Bible is our “rule for faith and life” (See the Westminster Confession).  For further understanding of Bay’s theology around the Word of God, the best summary we have is in our Pastoral letter on Biblical Authority which can be found on our website: www.baypres.org.